There is one month for Ross Brawn to get an buyer for the team. Otherwise the team will be closed
Honda sale
Honda sale
Read this: http://f1.uk.reuters.com/f1/news/India-368771-3.php
There is one month for Ross Brawn to get an buyer for the team. Otherwise the team will be closed
There is one month for Ross Brawn to get an buyer for the team. Otherwise the team will be closed
- . -
Re: Honda sale
A bit shocking to see how quickly this seems to have developed, but it's certainly a vivid indication of how dire the financial situation is right now. As you could read in the news over the last few days, a lot of automobile manufacturers expect losses next year.
Personnel-wise, it puts a few interesting careers on the line, obviously, unless a buyer can be found for the team -- which doesn't seem likely to me, especially given this current situation... Regardless of that, speculations will be going through the roof now for the next couple of weeks.
Personnel-wise, it puts a few interesting careers on the line, obviously, unless a buyer can be found for the team -- which doesn't seem likely to me, especially given this current situation... Regardless of that, speculations will be going through the roof now for the next couple of weeks.
1996 .. 2017 .. 21 years and counting ..
Re: Honda sale
There go some little rumors about Dave Richards buying Honda. With Prodrive as a name? Honda doesn't bother if the team is sold for a "low" price.... 
I think Honda only would sell the team, if they are 100% procent sure they have a new buyer.
I think Honda only would sell the team, if they are 100% procent sure they have a new buyer.
TdK - (re)tired GrandPrix 2 manic!
Re: Honda sale
Guys I have to say, of all the manufacturers I thought would pull out first, I never would have picked Honda given their heritage within F1... I guess things have changed somewhat.
I was shocked that it happened yet at the same time, not surprised given the fact that manufactuerers have always gone when they wished in F1.
Personally, I hate the presence of the manufactuers as fully fledged teams because they don't care about us fans at all, despite what they might say in their press releases, all they do care about is selling cars, which is far enough, but NOT at the detriment to the sport!
What happens if (as predicted), the global crisis gets worse before the upturn happens?
Renault pull out, Toyota, BMW??
F1 is left with more or less 12 cars...
I would be worried to say the least...
That's why prospective teams like Prodrive, Directx(???) (Alesi's consortium) and Zakspeed and others, should be allowed to compete with reasonable budgets.
Because sooner or later, the manufactuers WILL dissapear...
And I for one will have a celebratory cigar when they do!
I was shocked that it happened yet at the same time, not surprised given the fact that manufactuerers have always gone when they wished in F1.
Personally, I hate the presence of the manufactuers as fully fledged teams because they don't care about us fans at all, despite what they might say in their press releases, all they do care about is selling cars, which is far enough, but NOT at the detriment to the sport!
What happens if (as predicted), the global crisis gets worse before the upturn happens?
Renault pull out, Toyota, BMW??
F1 is left with more or less 12 cars...
I would be worried to say the least...
That's why prospective teams like Prodrive, Directx(???) (Alesi's consortium) and Zakspeed and others, should be allowed to compete with reasonable budgets.
Because sooner or later, the manufactuers WILL dissapear...
And I for one will have a celebratory cigar when they do!
"There's nothing wrong with the car in front except that it's on fire!!!!!!!!!!!"
Murray Walker
Murray Walker
Re: Honda sale
Well, I've read, they would agree to sell the team for $1, if the buyer can guarantee a future for the team along with keeping many of the 700 employees.TdK wrote:Honda doesn't bother if the team is sold for a "low" price....
Has someone here have a dollar for me... ^^
Re: Honda sale
I can afford $1 no problem! Jesus, to think, I could be the next owner of the Brackley team. Gosh, well the first thing I would do is assign... Whoops! Forgot, it's the remaining £150 million I'm a little short of!
Damn, so near and yet so far...
Damn, so near and yet so far...
"There's nothing wrong with the car in front except that it's on fire!!!!!!!!!!!"
Murray Walker
Murray Walker
Re: Honda sale
I've got a tenner I can lend you MaxD, that should secure the services of Jenson Button for, ooh, about three minutes...
Seriously though, how bad a state is the sport in if a company the size of Honda can't afford it? The car industry at the moment is in a perilous state, in the mid-80's Renault had to make a fair chunk of its workforce redundant and as a result pulled out of F1 because it would have looked pretty bad for its image if it stayed in such a decadent sport while they was robbing people of their jobs. Honda UK are cutting back at their Swindon factory, Mini (owned by BMW) are telling staff not to bother coming back after Christmas for a few weeks (all unpaid) so a similar situation seems to be arising. The American car industry appears to be worst hit, Mercedes are part American these days (as part of Daimler-Chrysler) so how long till they are affected? A lot of Ferrari's and BMW's sales are in the US. Potentially this could be enormous.
Seriously though, how bad a state is the sport in if a company the size of Honda can't afford it? The car industry at the moment is in a perilous state, in the mid-80's Renault had to make a fair chunk of its workforce redundant and as a result pulled out of F1 because it would have looked pretty bad for its image if it stayed in such a decadent sport while they was robbing people of their jobs. Honda UK are cutting back at their Swindon factory, Mini (owned by BMW) are telling staff not to bother coming back after Christmas for a few weeks (all unpaid) so a similar situation seems to be arising. The American car industry appears to be worst hit, Mercedes are part American these days (as part of Daimler-Chrysler) so how long till they are affected? A lot of Ferrari's and BMW's sales are in the US. Potentially this could be enormous.
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Re: Honda sale
I know what you mean Greyhead!
For me, Formula 1 will always be the best BUT it is VERY worrying what has happened with Honda.
I would also like to go on a bit if I may...
Back in the mid-late 80's to 90's, car manufactuers were quite content with supplying engines which as far as I can recall, did help their car sales tremendously and it didn't really matter if Williams, Benetton or Jordan et al lost an engine deal because there would always be another one to get. With this format, there was no real danger of the teams going under, unless they were very poorly managed financially...
Now the point is, car makes will use the sporting arena to sell cars ONLY. They are not interested in the history of the sport or the spectators wishes. they are only interested in people buying their products/cars. Which is fine but when they feel that arena offers no opportunity to increase sales (because it is now SO competitive) or it becomes impractical to continue excessive spending without results, the CEO's of these companies will pull the plug without hesitation or worries about the sport. AND THAT IS VERY VERY WRONG!
personally, I think ALL car manufactuers like Honda, Toyota, renault, BMW etc should only be permitted to be engine suppliers like Mercedes are. The teams will always be around if the manufactuers aren't involved becuase the monies required to be competitive will be reduced slightly.
I know i'm waffling a bit but to me, F1 should always be about racing teams with engine partners. Teams who are in the sport because they LOVE motorsport, not use it as an advert!
That's why I hate them being part of F1 and especially becuase they are having so much say on how the sport I love is run. they'll discuss how to make the sport better for them and other manufactuers like Honda have done, then they dissapear without giving a shit about what they've left behind!
Sorry for the language guys but I really feel passsionate about this!
In closing I'd just like to say to Max and Mr Bernie-loosing-his-marbles-fast-Ecclestone, please alter the direction these teams are taking the sport before it collapses in on itself!
These manufactuers don't care about F1 the sport, just F1 the businessa and they WILL leave one almighty mess behind their treadmarks up that escape route...
For me, Formula 1 will always be the best BUT it is VERY worrying what has happened with Honda.
I would also like to go on a bit if I may...
Back in the mid-late 80's to 90's, car manufactuers were quite content with supplying engines which as far as I can recall, did help their car sales tremendously and it didn't really matter if Williams, Benetton or Jordan et al lost an engine deal because there would always be another one to get. With this format, there was no real danger of the teams going under, unless they were very poorly managed financially...
Now the point is, car makes will use the sporting arena to sell cars ONLY. They are not interested in the history of the sport or the spectators wishes. they are only interested in people buying their products/cars. Which is fine but when they feel that arena offers no opportunity to increase sales (because it is now SO competitive) or it becomes impractical to continue excessive spending without results, the CEO's of these companies will pull the plug without hesitation or worries about the sport. AND THAT IS VERY VERY WRONG!
personally, I think ALL car manufactuers like Honda, Toyota, renault, BMW etc should only be permitted to be engine suppliers like Mercedes are. The teams will always be around if the manufactuers aren't involved becuase the monies required to be competitive will be reduced slightly.
I know i'm waffling a bit but to me, F1 should always be about racing teams with engine partners. Teams who are in the sport because they LOVE motorsport, not use it as an advert!
That's why I hate them being part of F1 and especially becuase they are having so much say on how the sport I love is run. they'll discuss how to make the sport better for them and other manufactuers like Honda have done, then they dissapear without giving a shit about what they've left behind!
Sorry for the language guys but I really feel passsionate about this!
In closing I'd just like to say to Max and Mr Bernie-loosing-his-marbles-fast-Ecclestone, please alter the direction these teams are taking the sport before it collapses in on itself!
These manufactuers don't care about F1 the sport, just F1 the businessa and they WILL leave one almighty mess behind their treadmarks up that escape route...
"There's nothing wrong with the car in front except that it's on fire!!!!!!!!!!!"
Murray Walker
Murray Walker
Re: Honda sale
As if by magic, I have stumbled across this interview on Autosport:
Adam Parr confirms my thoughts and helps me realise I haven't lost my mind! please read carefully...
Williams's CEO Adam Parr believes another Formula One team will leave the sport before the start of the 2009 season.
"I had expected one or two teams to pull out of Formula One imminently," Parr told Reuters in an interview.
"And I also said that it was not necessarily going to be just independent teams that were involved.
"I believe that we probably will lose another team before the beginning of next season and there is a very high chance it will be a manufacturer."
Japanese manufacturer Honda announced last week that it was withdrawing from Formula One with immediate effect due to the world's financial crisis.
The Brackley-based squad have been put up for sale and their chiefs are trying to find a buyer before the start of the season in Melbourne in March.
Parr said Honda's decision came as a consequence "of unlimited and unrestrained spending."
"Honda didn't have to leave Formula One, it chose to," added Parr. "Williams would never choose to leave Formula One. So long as we can rub together a few pennies and put together a half-decent budget, we are going to go racing.
"If we have to tailor what we spend to a lower income, then we'll do that. To me, it's just completely illogical to talk about Williams leaving Formula One."
He added: "We believe that our position is pretty much different to all the other teams because every other team in Formula One is primarily dependent on one of its shareholders that is providing either all or a very high proportion of the income for the team.
"That shareholder is in Formula One primarily for marketing reasons. They can at any time decide that the cost-benefit ratio of leaving Formula One makes sense.
"The difference with Williams is that we don't have a choice about being in F1, that is what we do."
Adam Parr confirms my thoughts and helps me realise I haven't lost my mind! please read carefully...
Williams's CEO Adam Parr believes another Formula One team will leave the sport before the start of the 2009 season.
"I had expected one or two teams to pull out of Formula One imminently," Parr told Reuters in an interview.
"And I also said that it was not necessarily going to be just independent teams that were involved.
"I believe that we probably will lose another team before the beginning of next season and there is a very high chance it will be a manufacturer."
Japanese manufacturer Honda announced last week that it was withdrawing from Formula One with immediate effect due to the world's financial crisis.
The Brackley-based squad have been put up for sale and their chiefs are trying to find a buyer before the start of the season in Melbourne in March.
Parr said Honda's decision came as a consequence "of unlimited and unrestrained spending."
"Honda didn't have to leave Formula One, it chose to," added Parr. "Williams would never choose to leave Formula One. So long as we can rub together a few pennies and put together a half-decent budget, we are going to go racing.
"If we have to tailor what we spend to a lower income, then we'll do that. To me, it's just completely illogical to talk about Williams leaving Formula One."
He added: "We believe that our position is pretty much different to all the other teams because every other team in Formula One is primarily dependent on one of its shareholders that is providing either all or a very high proportion of the income for the team.
"That shareholder is in Formula One primarily for marketing reasons. They can at any time decide that the cost-benefit ratio of leaving Formula One makes sense.
"The difference with Williams is that we don't have a choice about being in F1, that is what we do."
"There's nothing wrong with the car in front except that it's on fire!!!!!!!!!!!"
Murray Walker
Murray Walker
Re: Honda sale
Some good points MaxD.
Last time there was a recession in the early nineties, Bernie Ecclestone and Max Mosley gave interviews to "BBC Grand Prix" magazine about what it would mean for F1. At the time the Group C sportscar championship had imploded as a result of the manufacturers pulling out, and Mosley and Ecclestone were concerned about a similar thing happening to F1. At the time there were 16 teams in the sport but only one of them was a full-factory team (Ferrari). The others had either engine partners or customer teams and there were a hell of a lot more companies involved then. McLaren had Honda, Williams had Renault, Benetton had Ford, Jordan had Yamaha, while other teams had Ford, Judd, Lamborgini, Renault, Mugen-Honda, Ferrari or Ilmor units. Some of these teams disappeared over time as they'd been living beyond their means, but because barely any of them were at the whim of a manufacturer there were still 26 cars on the grid the year after, and the year after that there were 28! Since the manufacturers became more involved the costs have spiralled, just fifteen years ago the very top teams would employ 150-200 people, now Honda has 700...
Last time there was a recession in the early nineties, Bernie Ecclestone and Max Mosley gave interviews to "BBC Grand Prix" magazine about what it would mean for F1. At the time the Group C sportscar championship had imploded as a result of the manufacturers pulling out, and Mosley and Ecclestone were concerned about a similar thing happening to F1. At the time there were 16 teams in the sport but only one of them was a full-factory team (Ferrari). The others had either engine partners or customer teams and there were a hell of a lot more companies involved then. McLaren had Honda, Williams had Renault, Benetton had Ford, Jordan had Yamaha, while other teams had Ford, Judd, Lamborgini, Renault, Mugen-Honda, Ferrari or Ilmor units. Some of these teams disappeared over time as they'd been living beyond their means, but because barely any of them were at the whim of a manufacturer there were still 26 cars on the grid the year after, and the year after that there were 28! Since the manufacturers became more involved the costs have spiralled, just fifteen years ago the very top teams would employ 150-200 people, now Honda has 700...
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Re: Honda sale
I know greayhead, and that also means potentially 700 more people going to be unemployed!
The WSC was a great series up to a point, when Porsche factory and Mercedes, Jaguar, Toyota et al departed, it was a joke and I'd hate that to happen to F1. Indepentants must be given priority for once, not the manufactuers and potential new teams must be given a chance to enter and flourish, cos their the ones that'll be around, not the others!
Bring on the standard Cosworth engine if that's the only chance!
The WSC was a great series up to a point, when Porsche factory and Mercedes, Jaguar, Toyota et al departed, it was a joke and I'd hate that to happen to F1. Indepentants must be given priority for once, not the manufactuers and potential new teams must be given a chance to enter and flourish, cos their the ones that'll be around, not the others!
Bring on the standard Cosworth engine if that's the only chance!
"There's nothing wrong with the car in front except that it's on fire!!!!!!!!!!!"
Murray Walker
Murray Walker
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Moonrakerâ„¢
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Re: Honda sale
I have to admit, I'm saddened by this, also, I understand the world crisis etc, but I really found it a shock!
I always will think the best option is for privateer teams with a works engine.
The golden days for me were like:
Arrows - Yamaha / Hart
Williams - Honda / Renault / Mecachrome
Benetton - Ford / Renault / Playlife
Jordan - Ford / Peugeout
It just made sense for the manufacturers to focus on the engines and get their R&D through that, and leave the shrewd, dedicated charactors like the Eddie Jordan's to build a chassis and manage the budget.
It's only ever since the Manufacturers and the "playboys (Red Bull, Midland Group)" etc. came to the sport that everything went tits up. It's a bit strange that when we lost the ones with the real passion, who wanted pride from their blood sweat and tears and they were replaced with the ones who wanted GLOBAL BRAND RECOGNITION from their MILLIONS that F1 got a little less interesting off the track and indeed got more and more expensive.
I always will think the best option is for privateer teams with a works engine.
The golden days for me were like:
Arrows - Yamaha / Hart
Williams - Honda / Renault / Mecachrome
Benetton - Ford / Renault / Playlife
Jordan - Ford / Peugeout
It just made sense for the manufacturers to focus on the engines and get their R&D through that, and leave the shrewd, dedicated charactors like the Eddie Jordan's to build a chassis and manage the budget.
It's only ever since the Manufacturers and the "playboys (Red Bull, Midland Group)" etc. came to the sport that everything went tits up. It's a bit strange that when we lost the ones with the real passion, who wanted pride from their blood sweat and tears and they were replaced with the ones who wanted GLOBAL BRAND RECOGNITION from their MILLIONS that F1 got a little less interesting off the track and indeed got more and more expensive.
In a time of global financial crisis... cheap motorsport is the key!! GPRL resumes in 2009!
Re: Honda sale
=D>:MaxD wrote:I know i'm waffling a bit but to me, F1 should always be about racing teams with engine partners. Teams who are in the sport because they LOVE motorsport, not use it as an advert!
I totally agree. Look at teams like Williams and Red Bull. They can stay alive by themselves with income from sponsors.
If Formula 1 becomes a car manufactures championship, what it has become the last years: BAR = Honda, Benetton = Renault, Toyota, Sauber = BMW, McLaren = Mercedes, Ferrari, etc. They only see F1 as "Advertising Space".
A F1 team belongs to a "Frank Williams", and not to a CEO somewhere on the other side off the world, who
doesn't care at all about F1.
If it continue's this way, F1 = dying...
TdK - (re)tired GrandPrix 2 manic!
Re: Honda sale
Guys, can I just add something...
When I first became a fan in 1984, I didn't really understand the associations with teams and engine manufactuers but as I got older and my knowledge expanded, I did. Now, I remember being like a kid locked in a sweet shop when buying Autosport in late feb, early march in the 80's and early-mid 90's because new associations were being revealed and the excitment was fantastic! I was loving it when Williams got renault engines in '89, when they got the Rothmans livery for '94, when McLaren lost Honda and signed Ford, then Pegeout for '94. Remember those days? Different liveries, different engines, different drivers who even in their press releases had a bit of humour and spoke their mind!
it was fantastic!!!
A sport run by fans, for the fans!
Now, a sport run by business, for the same business and not the fans!
Same liveries every year, same drivers, same forelorne looking faces, same publiclycorrect language (unless it's Ron Dennis - christ, does anyone understand him!)
God I wish the manufactuers had gone and formed their own series 3 years ago. Cos I would have preffered to watch Williams, Jordan, Minardi et al rather than a manufactuer-designed one.
Oh and by the way...
What would have happened to THAT series in this current climate?...
When I first became a fan in 1984, I didn't really understand the associations with teams and engine manufactuers but as I got older and my knowledge expanded, I did. Now, I remember being like a kid locked in a sweet shop when buying Autosport in late feb, early march in the 80's and early-mid 90's because new associations were being revealed and the excitment was fantastic! I was loving it when Williams got renault engines in '89, when they got the Rothmans livery for '94, when McLaren lost Honda and signed Ford, then Pegeout for '94. Remember those days? Different liveries, different engines, different drivers who even in their press releases had a bit of humour and spoke their mind!
it was fantastic!!!
A sport run by fans, for the fans!
Now, a sport run by business, for the same business and not the fans!
Same liveries every year, same drivers, same forelorne looking faces, same publiclycorrect language (unless it's Ron Dennis - christ, does anyone understand him!)
God I wish the manufactuers had gone and formed their own series 3 years ago. Cos I would have preffered to watch Williams, Jordan, Minardi et al rather than a manufactuer-designed one.
Oh and by the way...
What would have happened to THAT series in this current climate?...
"There's nothing wrong with the car in front except that it's on fire!!!!!!!!!!!"
Murray Walker
Murray Walker
Re: Honda sale
Ah halcyon days! I remember hearing about McLaren getting Peugeot engines for 1994 and not quite understanding why one of the most successful teams would link up with a company that, to my mind, had little motorsport heritage! I didn't know about the 905 sportscar at the time... Or indeed Peugeot's successes in the early days of motor sport... I loved the mid-eighties to mid nineties period, there were all sorts of bizarre teams and engine manufacturers knocking about (anyone remember Life or Andrea Moda?). The list of manufacturers from that period is mind-boggling: The usual suspects like Ford, Ferrari, Renault and Honda, but also Lamborghini, Motori Moderni, Judd, Ilmor, Yamaha, Alfa Romeo, Mugen, Ford's confusing array of customer units, Hart, Subaru, Megatron...
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