What is possible to have in GP2?

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RacerBG
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Re: What it's possible to have in GP2?

Post by RacerBG »

rremedio wrote:
Aerond wrote:First things first; this is a very interesting topic of conversation. Thanks a lot to rremedio for bringing it.

Now, I´m thinking that maybe, instead of changing the code, maybe, not an easier, but a more rewarding task in the end would be to get the source code (here we go...), and then, clone the game to a more universal language, the way fans did with Transport Tycoon Deluxe, who created OpenTTD, improving (and still doing) a lot the original game features. Now, I understand I´m asking for something very big (myself not being a programmer not having any idea as well) but I understand OpenTTD started as a small project and then programmers kept coming in.
Yes, that would be great and I'm sure several programmers would be willing to help or take over.
So we could have a project called OpenGP2? That would be really nice but damn does anyone still have the game source code?
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rremedio
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Re: What it's possible to have in GP2?

Post by rremedio »

RacerBG wrote:
rremedio wrote:
Aerond wrote:First things first; this is a very interesting topic of conversation. Thanks a lot to rremedio for bringing it.

Now, I´m thinking that maybe, instead of changing the code, maybe, not an easier, but a more rewarding task in the end would be to get the source code (here we go...), and then, clone the game to a more universal language, the way fans did with Transport Tycoon Deluxe, who created OpenTTD, improving (and still doing) a lot the original game features. Now, I understand I´m asking for something very big (myself not being a programmer not having any idea as well) but I understand OpenTTD started as a small project and then programmers kept coming in.
Yes, that would be great and I'm sure several programmers would be willing to help or take over.
So we could have a project called OpenGP2? That would be really nice but damn does anyone still have the game source code?
You may ask Interactive Game Group who is the probable owner of Microprose intelectual properties :mrgreen:
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racer63
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Re: What it's possible to have in GP2?

Post by racer63 »

Hello guys. I´ve been away for a while but was reading this thread today, so my 2 cents:

Firstly, GP2 still is a commercial game, so expect a near impossible task to get the code. In the best situation, anyone who wanted the code should have to pay for it. Will not be free.

Changes:

I´d be happy just with the rain effect and a better CC behavior, just like GP3 to say the least. That´s all. Of course, the Open GP2 idea would be great, but who knows how to code in assembly? and unfortunatelly our community is not big enough to attract many coders out there or people interested in re-coding GP2.
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rremedio
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Re: What it's possible to have in GP2?

Post by rremedio »

I think some guys are misunderstanding this topic. All we are talking here is about possibilities. So we can discuss and maybe create a reference for when people come up the same doubts. Even when we talk about something that is possible, it doesn't mean it's easy (there's a reason why nobody ever did it before) or we are working on it. I'm not working on any of those things and I don't know about anyone who is. I've been trying for many years to find ways to improve the game, but my knowledge is very short for those complex tasks and sadly there's no great programmer working on GP2 anymore (as there was in the past).

Of course someone with the required talent may come up someday, but is unlikely. And getting the source code is way more unlikely.

I think it's nice if we keep talking about it, even if we know we will probably never get these features. And it's even better if we keep posting our most desired features, so we can create a "most desired list", just for fun :mrgreen:

By the way, I need to update the initial posts after so many ideas people have talked about. But I'm so lazy... ](*,)
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racer63
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Re: What it's possible to have in GP2?

Post by racer63 »

I know it, Roberto. We´re talking just about possibilities. And just because the possibility of getting the GP2 code is very hard doesn´t mean that is impossible, so I want to propose an idea:

We could write a letter to whoever is the owner of the code (or the property rights over the code) asking to free it. It doesn´t make any sense to have the copyright over a game that very few people play nowadays (just us and some other old game fan) and even less people buy. I don´t understand why GP2 is not abandonware at this stage, but we could try.

Of course we can sign the petition as the only GP2 dedicated community over the interwebs. But we could too try to endorse to the cause to some abandonware sites, like Abandonia, etc...

So first question is who is the owner/copyright holder of GP2, today?
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rremedio
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Re: What it's possible to have in GP2?

Post by rremedio »

racer63 wrote:So first question is who is the owner/copyright holder of GP2, today?
That's a good question. Nobody knows if it was owned by Geoff Crammond or MicroProse when MicroProse was an active company. I bet it was MicroProse, becouse other games from famous authors belonged to the company, to the point of Sid Meier having to go to the courts to have the rights for his Civilization series.

But MicroProse was sold and sold again several times and nobody knows if the cipyrights were passed to the new owners or stayed with the parent companies which were selling MicroProse.

The last game of the series, GP4, was released under Infogrames, which (info got at wikipedia), took over Hasbro which owned Atari. Then Infogrames changed its name to Atari and later sold the Microprose brand to Interactive Game Group, but nobody knows if the games rights were sold too.

So the source code might belong to Interactive Game Group, Atari or Geoff Crammond or maybe to somebody else who was left on the way (I'm assuming that the owner of GP4 code also owns GP2 code).

And those are all my guesses as I don't have any real information and I don't even understand how all those copyrights, intelectual properties and publishing rights work.
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racer63
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Re: What it's possible to have in GP2?

Post by racer63 »

In HOTUD says Crammond is the owner: http://www.hotud.org/component/content/ ... port/23827
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rremedio
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Re: What it's possible to have in GP2?

Post by rremedio »

racer63 wrote:In HOTUD says Crammond is the owner: http://www.hotud.org/component/content/ ... port/23827
You ruined my fun, wondering about company conspiracies of evil lawyers :mrgreen:
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Michael82
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Re: What it's possible to have in GP2?

Post by Michael82 »

I wondered if F1GP is a abandonware we could see the similitude with GP2? But the source code of F1GP wasn't given to the public, isn't it?
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Re: What it's possible to have in GP2?

Post by Michael82 »

Perhaps.. We could have the source code with a reverse Engineering method..
This guys did this for several games .. like Grandprix manager 2 (Microprose) Maybe he can give us the solution with grandprix2 !!.. http://bringerp.free.fr/RE/
racer63
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Re: What it's possible to have in GP2?

Post by racer63 »

Michael82 wrote:I wondered if F1GP is a abandonware we could see the similitude with GP2? But the source code of F1GP wasn't given to the public, isn't it?
F1GP is not abandonware so wasn´t given to the public.
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RacerBG
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Re: What it's possible to have in GP2?

Post by RacerBG »

Geoff is the owner but there is probability that the source code already did not exists... Anyway if it exists there is no guarantee that he will give us the source code. He most likely will agree to give the F1GP source code but still there is a chance that this sources already did not exists because they are very old.

Assembly or not if we have the source code we will change the game (because we will learn it :lol: ).
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tecnorge3
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Re: What it's possible to have in GP2?

Post by tecnorge3 »

racer63 wrote:
Michael82 wrote:I wondered if F1GP is a abandonware we could see the similitude with GP2? But the source code of F1GP wasn't given to the public, isn't it?
F1GP is not abandonware so wasn´t given to the public.
Yes, it is abandonware.

http://www.abandonia.com/en/games/400/F ... +Prix.html
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rremedio
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Re: What it's possible to have in GP2?

Post by rremedio »

Abandonware has nothing to do with source codes. Sometimes publishers give away the source code for old games, but it's just becouse they want to.
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GP2tifoso28
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Re: What is possible to have in GP2?

Post by GP2tifoso28 »

Well guys, 6 years down the line there have been some new developments. GP2lap source code has been released by Rene Schmidt, and I'm sure most of you have seen this interview with Geoff Crammond: https://www.grandprixgames.org/read.php?4,1055383

One thing I want to point out from the interview is this:

"The AI in GP4 was based on certain fundamental philosophies that I created in F1GP1 and continued to build on throughout the series"

This makes sense, as the AI from GP4 didn't come out of nowhere. Each GP game is a constant development and all shared the DNA from the original GP1. After playing a fair bit of GP3 lately one thing that is noticeable is the improvement on AI from GP2. Based off what Geoff is saying, it seems that it may be technically possible to apply GP4 AI to GP2. Even if we could apply GP3 AI to GP2 it would be a massive improvement to the game.

Another thing Geoff said:

"One of the projects I did a few years ago was to convert my assembler version of the GP4 sim and AI to C++ so it wouldn't become totally dead code"

Now we can only surmise what the monetary value of that code would be. Seeing as no modern game developer has come even remotely close to matching Sir Geoff's AI almost 15 years later, and it took Sir Geoff maybe 12 years of constant development to get the final product seen in GP4. I would only guess that the AI code would be one of the most guarded secrets in the gaming industry. You could not put a value on that code, every developer in the industry would kill to get their hands on it.

Another interesting observation from Rene Schmidt:

"Nice interview. Interesting to read that he has converted assembler code to C++. Looking at the disassembly, it's obvious which parts were Geoff's handwritten code, and which was C++ code done by Microprose."

Maybe Rene Schmidt is the only guy with the capability to apply GP4 AI code to GP2, even if he doesn't understand the inner workings of the code itself. We can only dream that one day this will be possible, although I suspect that NOBODY has the capability to completely reverse engineer the AI code itself, the only one who truly understands the voodoo is Geoff Crammond.
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