Non-championship races vs. championship difference

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samsepi0l
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Re: Non-championship races vs. championship difference

Post by samsepi0l » 01.10.2019, 22:30

Can I ask what your goal is? I agree with your pursuit of realism. Don't be brought down by "wasting" your time trying to figure this out. It's not a waste. I remember with ICR2 I was able to spend a few straight days of testing to figure out how the "yellow flag" bug worked and I was able to fix it in some ways. I have aspergers/autism so I get hyper-focused with things like GP2, and it allows me to get absorbed beyond belief so I understand your situation.

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GP2tifoso28
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Re: Non-championship races vs. championship difference

Post by GP2tifoso28 » 01.10.2019, 22:58

samsepi0l wrote:
01.10.2019, 22:30
Can I ask what your goal is? I agree with your pursuit of realism. Don't be brought down by "wasting" your time trying to figure this out. It's not a waste. I remember with ICR2 I was able to spend a few straight days of testing to figure out how the "yellow flag" bug worked and I was able to fix it in some ways. I have aspergers/autism so I get hyper-focused with things like GP2, and it allows me to get absorbed beyond belief so I understand your situation.
My goals are to diagnose if the problem is related to gp2 or dosbox, and to try and find a workaround or solution because Rremedio's quickrace trick doesn't fully work for me. I don't understand why I have the problem because he's getting random results.

As far as I'm concerned this is a serious game breaking issue but I'm sure (I hope) there's some way around it. Honestly I'm shocked that he even noticed it.

It works in the sense that it "randomises" the next race, but it's not truly random because I can replicate it over and over again after I reboot the game provided that I replicate the same conditions. This is driving me crazy

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GP2tifoso28
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Re: Non-championship races vs. championship difference

Post by GP2tifoso28 » 01.10.2019, 23:11

Ok it gets weirder

If I run a non championship race in 0.74 and an identical race in ECE I get 2 different results. But if I rinse and repeat, the results on ECE are always the same, and the results on 0.74 are always the same (but different from each other)

If I try the quickrace trick in ECE, the results are different from 0.74, but the same every time on ECE across multiple boots.

This makes no sense. How the hell is this algorithm working? It's worth mentioning that ECE is launching a copy/paste of the exact same gp2 folder but saved in a different location. Everything else should be the same

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rremedio
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Re: Non-championship races vs. championship difference

Post by rremedio » 02.10.2019, 00:31

GP2tifoso28 wrote:
01.10.2019, 23:11
Ok it gets weirder

If I run a non championship race in 0.74 and an identical race in ECE I get 2 different results. But if I rinse and repeat, the results on ECE are always the same, and the results on 0.74 are always the same (but different from each other)

If I try the quickrace trick in ECE, the results are different from 0.74, but the same every time on ECE across multiple boots.

This makes no sense. How the hell is this algorithm working? It's worth mentioning that ECE is launching a copy/paste of the exact same gp2 folder but saved in a different location. Everything else should be the same
Trying both DosBox versions in the same folder I get the same results for the first race, indicating that the dosbox version won't impact the initial seed. Can't tell about the second race because my second races have been random.

We don't know what is exactly used when defining a seed, so file location may impact it, but I wouldn't bet on it.
"The Fox provides for himself. but God provides for the Lion" - The Marriage of Heaven and Hell by William Blake

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GP2tifoso28
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Re: Non-championship races vs. championship difference

Post by GP2tifoso28 » 02.10.2019, 00:55

rremedio wrote:
02.10.2019, 00:31
GP2tifoso28 wrote:
01.10.2019, 23:11
Ok it gets weirder

If I run a non championship race in 0.74 and an identical race in ECE I get 2 different results. But if I rinse and repeat, the results on ECE are always the same, and the results on 0.74 are always the same (but different from each other)

If I try the quickrace trick in ECE, the results are different from 0.74, but the same every time on ECE across multiple boots.

This makes no sense. How the hell is this algorithm working? It's worth mentioning that ECE is launching a copy/paste of the exact same gp2 folder but saved in a different location. Everything else should be the same
Trying both DosBox versions in the same folder I get the same results for the first race, indicating that the dosbox version won't impact the initial seed. Can't tell about the second race because my second races have been random.

We don't know what is exactly used when defining a seed, so file location may impact it, but I wouldn't bet on it.
Now ECE has gone back to producing the same results as my initial tests on 0.74. My mind is about to explode.

I tried creating a gp2 log file but I really don't know what the data represents, most of it appears to be related to sound and there doesn't seem to be anything about the seed in there, but then again I wouldn't know.

To create a log file just put LOG:ON in the command prompt after gp2.exe, that will create a gp2 log file in your game folder

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rremedio
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Re: Non-championship races vs. championship difference

Post by rremedio » 02.10.2019, 04:57

Yeah, that log is more about memory handling and the loading of some (mostly sound) files. Nothing related to the actual simulation.
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GP2tifoso28
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Re: Non-championship races vs. championship difference

Post by GP2tifoso28 » 02.10.2019, 05:04

I found a solution to the problem. When you do the first quickrace, don't accelerate the time. Make sure you abandon the race. Now the seed appears to reset. I have spent another half a day testing this and now my data is consistent with Rremedio.

In all my earlier tests I was accelerating the quickrace and it wasn't resetting the seed. It was merely continuing on the same seed, which is why I could replicate successive race results with 100% accuracy. If I abandon the quick race, the following races appear completely 100% random indicating that the seed has changed.

So make sure when you start the game you enter and then abandon a quickrace, otherwise you'll be on the same seed every single time.

THANK YOU RREMEDIO. If it wasn't for you I would not know this problem / trick. Thank goodness the day and a half I wasted on this didn't completely go to waste

EDIT

I ran a few more tests for safety, I now have full confidence in this method. Start a quickrace, abandon, your seed is now random. THANKYOU RREMEDIO

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samsepi0l
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Re: Non-championship races vs. championship difference

Post by samsepi0l » 02.10.2019, 06:17

So- to summarize

We start GP2, and then I can calibrate my wheel/pedals.
go to quickrace, and I will appear on the grid.
hit "escape" and abandon.

Then I can go and act normal, doing my "non championship race"...

do you concur?

Laahustaja
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Re: Non-championship races vs. championship difference

Post by Laahustaja » 02.10.2019, 07:21

Thanks a lot for rremedio for clarification and GP2tifoso28 for spending time to test this! A time worth spending IMO, helped us other guys out with this! =D>

Should the guide on how to reset the seed be added into a sticky or something? That way new users would find the info easily.

Also, GP2tifoso28 did you use GPlap when getting the random seed or not?

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GP2tifoso28
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Re: Non-championship races vs. championship difference

Post by GP2tifoso28 » 02.10.2019, 07:47

samsepi0l wrote:
02.10.2019, 06:17
So- to summarize

We start GP2, and then I can calibrate my wheel/pedals.
go to quickrace, and I will appear on the grid.
hit "escape" and abandon.

Then I can go and act normal, doing my "non championship race"...

do you concur?
Yes I concur, that's what worked for me. Just quit the race straight away as soon as you're on the grid. Based off my data, If you accelerate the quick race and produce a result it's just generating the next sequence of the same starting seed. Abandoning the quickrace seems to generate a new random seed every time.
Laahustaja wrote:
02.10.2019, 07:21
Thanks a lot for rremedio for clarification and GP2tifoso28 for spending time to test this! A time worth spending IMO, helped us other guys out with this! =D>

Should the guide on how to reset the seed be added into a sticky or something? That way new users would find the info easily.

Also, GP2tifoso28 did you use GPlap when getting the random seed or not?
It's good to know somebody finds it useful... that might not be such a bad idea to make it a sticky, I'm shocked that remedio, minardi, and ekky even noticed the problem to begin with, and in reality the seed should be random every time like in gp3 and gp4. I would love to know if this issue exists in dos.

No I didn't use GP2 lap when I got the random seed, but rremedio said he was using it so it shouldn't make any difference

roland ratzenberger
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Re: Non-championship races vs. championship difference

Post by roland ratzenberger » 02.10.2019, 09:48

omg.. i have to say that i have never noticed that :shock: :shock: :shock: .. mainly because for some reason every time i make a small quickrace :lol: :lol: :lol: when i open the game just for warm up.. in any case thank you guys for this solution :D :D :D

ecodrive
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Re: Non-championship races vs. championship difference

Post by ecodrive » 02.10.2019, 12:28

rremedio wrote:
30.09.2019, 23:25
Idk who figured it out, probably René Smit since there is a feature in GPxPatch that allows you to use a fixed seed (so many people can try the same race, and very important in GP3+ competitions since they have the possibility of changing weather conditions, which is also attached to the random number generator). The only thing I figured out by myself is that the second seed is not always the same.

I just noticed it works the same in GP2 after some testing. And the whole thing is very commonplace in video games development since forever (Pitfall! on the Atari 2600 used the same kind of generator and it used a fixed seed so everybody played the same game, despite the "level" layout being random generated).

Idk if the starting seed is fixed between GP2 installations and different computers, I would assume it is, but I wouldn't be surprised if it used system data to pick the starting seed (another not very uncommon pattern in games).

Apart from using the "quickrace trick", another thing you can do by knowing that is checking how changing physics, performance data or magic data will affect a race by always checking the first race when you open GP2 after changing those things.

For full seasons idk how much of it depends on the seed that starts the season or if new seeds are created for each race. Since the numbers sequence can go very very long in a single seed, it could be either way.


Amazing! I mentioned this problem when I watched a Quick Race at Aida after loading the game without selecting a driver. There was a big crash in Turn 1. I quit the game, started GP2 again, watched a Quick Race at Aida (no driver selected) and... guess what? EXACTLY THE SAME CRASH IN TURN 1! During the 3rd time testing the same crash occurs again.

I often mod the performance data (driver grip, team engine power and team failure rate) for my GP2 with the GP2edit according to the real F1 results every race. When I export the new data to the GP2.exe it creates a complete new random sequence. This is my solution.

Here is the good news: You don't have to change the complete performance data. Just one value must be increased or decreased by 1.

For example just change the "Random Grip Range" for Antonio Giovinazzi from 420 to 419.
Or change the "Horse Power" of Alfa Romeo from 907 to 908.
It will generate a new source code for a random GP2 session!

What do you think? I know, it doesn't solve the problem with GP2's failing to generate a random new session after booting the game but maybe we will never get an answer from René Smit.
Last edited by ecodrive on 05.10.2019, 19:21, edited 1 time in total.

Laahustaja
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Re: Non-championship races vs. championship difference

Post by Laahustaja » 02.10.2019, 13:26

rremedio wrote:
30.09.2019, 15:46

About the Random Power Variation, most people will leave it off because it makes the performances between teams less reliable. It is a way of GP2 simulating the fact that some cars will run better in some tracks than in others, but it isn't very well done. But anyway, leaving it on won't bring any harm and it will increase the challenge from time to time, so maybe you can have fun with it.
One thing, could you open up what the random power variation actually does? Isn't the grip levels of cars and drivers already varying a bit between races?

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rremedio
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Re: Non-championship races vs. championship difference

Post by rremedio » 02.10.2019, 14:24

GP2tifoso28 wrote:
02.10.2019, 05:04
I found a solution to the problem. When you do the first quickrace, don't accelerate the time. Make sure you abandon the race. Now the seed appears to reset. I have spent another half a day testing this and now my data is consistent with Rremedio.

In all my earlier tests I was accelerating the quickrace and it wasn't resetting the seed. It was merely continuing on the same seed, which is why I could replicate successive race results with 100% accuracy. If I abandon the quick race, the following races appear completely 100% random indicating that the seed has changed.

So make sure when you start the game you enter and then abandon a quickrace, otherwise you'll be on the same seed every single time.

THANK YOU RREMEDIO. If it wasn't for you I would not know this problem / trick. Thank goodness the day and a half I wasted on this didn't completely go to waste

EDIT

I ran a few more tests for safety, I now have full confidence in this method. Start a quickrace, abandon, your seed is now random. THANKYOU RREMEDIO
Great! It is so weird the accelerating time would affect this. But GP2 is weird sometimes lol
Laahustaja wrote:
02.10.2019, 13:26
One thing, could you open up what the random power variation actually does? Isn't the grip levels of cars and drivers already varying a bit between races?
It works similarly to the Random Grip Range but it affects the car power and you can't change the actual range. When turned on, a small random value will be subtracted from the power of each car. The grip variation works the same but it is always turned on, it doesn't affect the player's cars and you can set the maximum possible value that can be decreased from each driver grip.
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rremedio
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Re: Non-championship races vs. championship difference

Post by rremedio » 02.10.2019, 15:09

ecodrive wrote:
02.10.2019, 12:28
Here is the good news: You don't have to change the complete performance data. Just one value must be increased or decreased by 1.

For example just change the "Random Grip Range" for Antonio Giovinazzi from 420 to 419.
Or change the "Horse Power" of Alfa Romeo from 907 to 908.
It will generate a new source code for a random GP2 session!

What do you think? I know, it doesn't solve the problem with GP2's failing to generate a random new session after booting the game but maybe we will never get an answer from Rene Smith.
That's a good idea!

About Rene: sometimes it takes a while but he always answers and tries to help. He just won't work on GP2Lap anymore because he has too much on his plate already and working with ancient dos compilers is probably not very fun given that his work with GPxPatch improves the three GP2 "children" games.
"The Fox provides for himself. but God provides for the Lion" - The Marriage of Heaven and Hell by William Blake

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